Part 2: Who and what are we? What happens at death?
In part 1 I established that eternal life is conditional. Only the righteous get it. Those who oppose this claim that man has an immortal soul. In doing this they usually use the words spirit and soul interchangeably. These words have been completely misused and misunderstood.
Most claim that we are not just a visible and physical being but also something else. Most Christians would also tell you that the difference between man and animal is that man has a soul while an animal does not. The word soul is translated from the Hebrew word nepesh and the Greek word psuche.
In English the word translates to creature, person, man, life, or lives. Its Latin equivalent is anima from which English derived the word animal. It is who or what you are as a dead or living being. The word for soul (Nepesh) is used to describe animals in (Genesis 1:20, 21, 24; 2:19; 9:10, 16; Leviticus 11:46; Numbers 31:28; Proverbs 12:10; Ezekiel 47:9; Revelation 8:9, 16:3).
The comparison of men and animals is made directly in these verses:
(Psalms 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: He is like the beasts that perish.)
(Ecclesiastes 3:18-21 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?)
The first sentence says that men “are beasts.” Beast was a description for animals. Men are simply animals in their makeup. There is nothing mystical or spiritual past what we see.
Man does have conscious thought and the ability to make decisions based on reason and conscience and not just impulse. Man is also self aware. The only thing this could be comparing is the physical and biological makeup in common between man and beast.
When an animal dies: people accept that it is really dead. They don’t believe in some sort of unseen magical event. The living creature ceases to live and is then a dead creature. This is the same process which happens to man at death. Nature is our example in so many ways.
The second and third sentences make the point clear. The second sentence shows the death of man and animal are the same process. It says “as the one dieth, so dieth the other.” For consistency’s sake, you must say that man dies a simple and pure death. Or you can say that all animals have a soul which lives on in some mystical way.
The third sentence says “All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.” Did this say where some go or where part of people will end up? If your body isn’t really you then why does it say all go to one place and turn to dust again? No one goes there or turns to dust again according to the belief that who you are flies away from your body at death.
This is describing death in the natural state in which we witness it. Someone ceases to live, is generally buried, and then decomposes. Solomon was putting man in his place here as a creature of nature with an endpoint similar to animals. To say we are naturally something greater is to miss his whole point here. In regards to death he says “man hath no preeminence above a beast.” Death isn’t some abra cadabra teleportation trick. It is the natural process of going from life to non-life: then to decay and decompose. It is what it is.
The idea of automatically having an immortal soul is contradicted in these verses:
(Leviticus 23:30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.)
(Joshua 10:35 And they took it in that day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein he utterly destroyed that day,---)
(Joshua 11:11 And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: there was not any left to breathe---)
Do these verses fit with idea the soul is a mystical and immaterial thing? People will tell you a soul can fly through the ceiling at death without really touching it. How can a sword kill much less touch a soul given this? Also, do souls have to breathe? Do you take an oxygen tank to heaven with you?
(Psalms 22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: All they that god down to the dust shall bow before Him: And none can keep alive his own soul.)
(Psalms 78:50 He made a way to his anger; He spared not their soul from death, But gave their life over to the pestilence)
(Psalms 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? Shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah)
(Psalms 119:175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise Thee;--)
(Ezekiel 18:4, 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.)
(Ezekiel 22:27 Her princes in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain.)
(James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.)
Shall save what from what? The punishment is death as from part 1. The punishment is on the soul. The soul doesn’t escape this. The soul can and will most certainly die.
It didn’t say ‘shall save a soul from fiery torture.’ I showed beyond all doubt in part 1 that death is the punishment to the wicked. Many try to rewrite the punishment by saying their soul can’t die. The above verses prove that it does.
Christ’s soul died
(Isaiah 53:9, 10 And He made His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in His death---when thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin---)
(Matthew 26:38 My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death-)
(Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give His life <psuche> a ransom for many.
The soul goes to the grave at death
(Job 33:22 Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave,--------)
(Psalms 16:10 For Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell <sheol>; Neither wilt Thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption.) repeated in Acts 2:27
(Psalms 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave--)
(Psalms 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? Shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave?)
(Job 18:20 –for they have digged a pit for my soul.--)
(Acts 2:31 He seeing this before, spake of the resurrection of Christ, that His soul was not left in hell, neither His flesh did see corruption.)
All these verses show the soul goes to the grave at death. Please show me anywhere in the Bible where someone’s soul goes to heaven to live on at death. If that is your whole argument to avoid the reality and certainty of death: it should be somewhere in there.
When Christ was resurrected (as in Acts2:31); his body came up out of the grave. Since people start to smell and rot somewhere on the fourth day, this avoided corruption. This is a very physical description of the fait of the soul of Christ.
Acts 2:31 brings us to another misused and misunderstood word. Another word for the day is “hell.” The common belief of what hell is does not match the original use of the word in the Bible.
In the verses I just quoted from Acts; hell represents the grave. Hell is an English word derived from the Anglo-Saxon word helan. This word means ‘to cover’ or ‘to hide out of sight.’
The Hebrew word for grave is sheol. The Greek word for grave is hades. Sheol was translated as “grave” 31 times, “hell” 31 times, and “pit” 3 times. Hades was translated “hell” ten times and “grave” once. Hades was used in Acts 2:27 in a direct quote from Psalms 16:10 for sheol. This shows the words are the same in meaning.
Contrary to popular belief, hell is not where the wicked go to be punished. Hell is where everyone who is buried now resides. The following verses show the righteous go to hell.
Jacob (Genesis 37:35 ---and he said, “For I will go down into the grave <sheol> mourning.”)
Job (Job 14:10-14 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that Thou wouldest hide me in the grave <sheol>, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until Thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.)
The first line shows Job is dealing with what happens after death and where man goes. The first two lines again show that man wastes and decays. The third line establishes death like sleep. The last two lines show that man doesn’t rise until an appointed time.
The next to last line says “O that Thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until Thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me.” How could God forget Job if he was in heaven with him? If he was rewarded in heaven wouldn’t that be his set time?
I love the last verse. Job says “If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.” Job clearly sees death as the cessation of life. He knows when he dies, he will really die, and need to be raised from it at some point in the future. This is all he has to look forward to prior to death.
(Job 17:11-16 My days are past, my purposes are broken off, even the thoughts of my heart. They change the night into day: the light is short because of darkness. If I wait, the grave <sheol> is mine house: I have made my bed in darkness. I have said to corruption ‘Thou art my father:’ to the worm, ‘Thou art my mother, and my sister.’ And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it? They shall go down to the bars of the pit <sheol>, when our rest together is in the dust.)
If Job believed in going to heaven at death: he sure didn’t show it. He again speaks of going to the grave, darkness, and rest at death. We could redefine these words to support the immortality of the soul.
Grave<sheol> = heaven, God’s kingdom
Darkness= the light of God and heaven
Sleep= activity and conscious thought in heaven
At the time of death, Job talks only of going to his grave to rot away. He doesn’t even hint at any part of him going to heaven. He will not raise anywhere or wake until the appointed time. Once he is buried; he will sleep the sleep of death and wait for his change to come. He goes where all go at death when he says “They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.”
Hezekiah (Isaiah 38:10 I said “in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of the grave <sheol>: I am deprived of the residue of my years.”)
You can read in Psalms and Acts that David was in hell. Read in Acts that Christ was there. I agree with the statement that people go to hell at death.
Assuming they are buried, according to scripture they are in hell or sheol. Whether they were righteous or un they will sleep in their grave. The difference will be made clear at their resurrection.
Check the story of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. Numbers 16:33 reads “They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit<sheol>, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.” Note that living people went into the word for hell. It is not an immaterial place for disembodied people to mystically fly to. That is not the point of this or any other Biblical story involving sheol.
(Amos 9:2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall Mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down)
People are digging into hell and climbing into heaven. These words describe real places we can see and go to. They aren’t where only the ferry man can take you. They aren’t past our finding out.
(Ezekiel 32:27And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and have laid their swords under their heads----)
I thought material things couldn’t go with the dead to hell. You would see them go. This is again speaking of a physical place. Hell is simply underground where you can bury anything you see.
(Revelation 20:13-15 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.)
I don’t take the sea to be anything more than water in this verse. In this natural context, hell is just the natural dirt that bodies lie in. Above I demonstrated that the righteous go to hell.
Here the wicked go there before they are even judged. Does God leave people burning in hell for possibly thousands of years to then finally decide to judge if they are worthy of punishment? Also, there is a separation here between the lake of fire and hell. Hell empties into the lake of fire because the lake of fire isn’t hell. Hell is a temporary resting place for the wicked and not a final destination.
At least part of the confusion over the word ‘hell’ was caused by the way in which it was translated. Hell was used to cover the Greek and Hebrew words for pit or grave. For some reason it was also used to cover a Greek word for a fire used as an incinerator.
The original words aren’t synonymous or even close in definition. A pit used as a grave and a fire for incineration are two very different things in the original language. They morphed into one idea when translated the way they were into English.
By doing this people can say that hell is both where people go right at death and the fire used to punish the wicked. Then they just run the two words together in space and time and create the mythology of hell. The reality is that there are two different words with two different meanings in play. They should be looked at separately in translation and in any implication of where people go at death and how the wicked will be punished.
Say water and freezing cold were both translated into the same word. You couldn’t just use ice to stand for all instances using these words. Cold should still mean low temperature and water is still liquid. You can’t form some new concept by fusing two words through questionable translation. Let alone write a whole story based off this Babel of bilanguage confusion.
Outside the city of Jerusalem in the days of the apostles there was a burning rubbish heap named “Gehenna.” It was the garbage incinerator for ancient Jerusalem. Rubbish, refuge, and dead animals were thrown in to consume away and be gotten rid of.
Criminals who died from crucifixion were cast in to be destroyed rather than receiving a proper burial. It was this specific word and image that was used to describe the fire of judgment God would later use to destroy the wicked. It denotes a fire used for disposal and not torture (remember the wicked “shall not be” from part one). Also, this word had nothing to do with a pit where someone was to be buried.
This word was translated “hell” twelve times in the New Testament.
Matthew 5:22---shall be in danger of hell fire---5:29---whole body be cast into hell---5:30---whole body be cast into hell---10:28---destroy soul and body in hell---18:9---two eyes cast into hell fire----23:15---Twofold more the child of hell---23:33---Escape the damnation of hell---Mark 9:43---having two hands to go into hell---9:45---Having two feet cast into hell---9:47---Two eyes cast into hell fire---Luke 12:5----Hath power to cast into hell---James 3:6---tongue is set on fire of hell.
Above I showed that hell is used for the pit of the grave. The quote from Revelation showed the earth will deliver up bodies for the lake of fire. These verses speaking of the fire are consistent with my teachings.
Note people’s hands, feet, eyes, and whole body go in. There is no inference of a presence without a body going in. What you see in the mirror is what is going in if you are wicked. It won’t be some other you or some kind of dream. Your whole body will be thrown in.
Also notice in Matthew 10:28 that soul and body are destroyed. Whichever angle you want to take on what we are: it will be destroyed then and there. The life of the wicked will be extinguished in the fire. Their body will consume.
The word spirit is used to describe the air we breathe, air or wind in general, an angelic being, an influence from a being, or a state of feeling. The Hebrew word for spirit is ruach and the Greek word is pneuma. The English words pneumonia and pneumatic were derived from this word. These are not spiritual afflictions but physical conditions which can inhibit breathing.
Like soul: the scriptures show that animals have spirit.
(Genesis 7:15/ 21, 22 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath<ruach> of life/ And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: All in whose nostrils was the breath<ruach> of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.)
Can’t you see the direct way the spirit of man and beast are correlated? Mankind and all beasts that creep on the earth must breathe to sustain life. When God flooded the earth, he took this ability away. This killed man and beast in the same exact way.
The spirit or ruach is just what keeps us all alive. Man and beast. All have flesh and all have spirit. The spirit of man isn’t who they are any more than the spirit being who an animal really is.
The spirit isn’t a magical thing which can defy physics. It was choked out by simple water. Once choked out of it: people and animals die a natural death.
(Ecclesiastes 3:18-21 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath<ruach>; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit<ruach> of man that goeth upward, and the spirit<ruach> of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?)
I summoned these verses back up for your perusal because you must now see how “spirit” was used in them. On this go round note that we have the same spirit as animals. Whether it goes up or down at death: it is the same thing. Once the spirit is gone from you: you die.
If you still insist on saying the spirit is an actual living being: shouldn’t you make up an underground afterlife story for animals? Also, does everyone get to go to heaven to be with God? I thought at least the really wicked were banished to hell.
(Psalms 104:29 –Thou takest away their breath<ruach>, they die, And return to their dust.)
Can’t you see that spirit is a possession or force one has? It is not literally them. God takes away “their breath” from them.
“They” die. They aren’t what was taken away from them. “They” return to the dust. God isn’t taking them away: but what keeps them alive.
(Psalms 146:4 His breath<ruach> goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.)
Whatever is leaving man at death must not be able to think on its own. This verse again confirms that “he” (the being) goes into the ground at death. It says “in that very day his thoughts perish.”
These verses are so at odds and quite the opposite of worldly teachings. The world treats the spirit as who you are and the body that dies like a coat or shirt (like something you own to wear and eventually discard). These verses speak of “him” or “they” being the one who actually dies. The spirit or breath is the thing taken away.
It didn’t just say their body went to the ground. It said “he” or “they.” Whoever or whatever you say we are, we quit thinking and go into the ground at death. Along with the body, are “he” or “they” not really them too? At what point do you actually accept that death means death to the real person? I know, I know: there is another “spiritual he” that doesn’t fall into any of this and wasn’t talked about.
If there were two of us it should describe where each go. If it were just to focus on one: why not the part which is supposedly really you? Why focus on the unwanted candy coated shell. If that isn’t who we are after death, who cares what happens to it or where it goes. Do you care what becomes of a peanut shell after you throw it away? It is in the trash or on the ground; so what?
(Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.)
See again the spirit as an essential possession and not who we are. See again the natural death and decomposition.
Once we no longer have “it”, God takes “it” back. They (the dust, or physical person no longer alive but just a collection of elements formed into our shape) again returns to the dust as consistent with the above verses. If you want to conclude the spirit is who we are then all go to heaven to be with God at death (and are called “it”). This is talking generally and not just of the righteous. It says that all spirit goes to God at death and not just the chosen.
All men must have oxygen and energy in order to live. Without it, they can’t function in any way. The relationship between man and the spirit in him is like that of machine and electricity. Most modern machines require electricity to function.
The electricity gives the machine life, or the ability to do whatever it was designed to do and be active. While the electricity is the life giving agent in this context; it doesn’t do the function of the machine on its own if it is apart from it. The only thing an electric current can give you on its own is a shock.
A computer that is plugged in can complete complex math equations, run programs, stream video images, download music, and all sorts of things. If it isn’t plugged in; it can’t do anything. The electricity going into the computer can’t do any of the above functions either. To try and get it to run Microsoft Word is to miss the purpose of it. Only by combining these two separate elements together do you get computer function.
Man with spirit can think, move, and live. Without it he can’t do anything and is buried or cremated. Like electricity can’t do what the machine does, the spirit can’t do what men do and it certainly isn’t who they are. It is a different thing altogether.
(Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath<ruach> of life; and man became a living soul.)
You can understand what man is and how he lives if you read this verse carefully. Man was formed from the dust of the ground. The elemental makeup of man is consistent with elements found in the dirt. Man wasn’t made of invisible and magical pixie dust or something. We are the elements and chemicals which can be analyzed and seen.
Also notice that God didn’t breathe Adam into a dirt shell but breathed life giving spirit into Adam. Adam was who and what he was both before and after God breathed the spirit into him. The breath just gave him life.
At that point the man, who was dust of the ground, became a living being. The breath was not a living being. Neither was Adam without this force.
(Job 34:12-15 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment. Who hath given Him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world? If He set His heart upon man, if He gather unto Himself his spirit and his breath; All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.)
Man only dies and returns to dust without his spirit. God could kill everyone all at once by taking their spirit. This wouldn’t be a good thing. It wouldn’t mean them going to paradise.
(James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.)
This whole chapter dealt with the importance of works and the difference and separation between faith and works. The two words represent two very different things. Eternal life only happens when you put faith and works together.
The common belief is that each has a physical body and a spiritual body. The two words (body and spirit) are shown to be very different in this analogy. If the spirit was actually a body why doesn’t it then say something like the physical body is dead without the spirit body? Why not differentiate between the two bodies if they both exist?
The body is only ever talked about in a singular fashion because you only have one. The multiple body theory is only spoken of outside the Bible. A body is either dead without the spirit or alive with it. Like you must have faith and works to have eternal life: you must have body and spirit to have life in general. This is the analogy here. The spirit only brings life to the body and is not a living body in and of itself.
(Acts 7:59, 60 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, “Lord, lay not this sin to their charge.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.)
Stephen did not say ‘Lord Jesus, receive me.’ Jesus may have received Stephen’s “spirit” but “he” only “fell asleep” at his time of death. It just doesn’t say that Stephen went anywhere or did anything else at death. Should we just write it in that “he” or “Stephen” actually went to heaven?
Death described as sleep!!!!!!!!!!
(Luke 8:52-55 And all wept, and bewailed her: but He said, “Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.” And they laughed Him to scorn, knowing that she was dead. And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, “maid, arise.” And her spirit came again, and she arose straightaway: and He commanded to give her meat.”)
To comfort those assembled: why didn’t Christ say she was in a better place or something? He didn’t say that she or any part of her was anywhere else. He didn’t call up to heaven or down to hell to call her back. He grabbed her by the hand and told her to arise. The dead body lying in front of him was still her.
Notice it says nothing of her coming back into her body as though reclaiming a possession. She was the one lying there without the possession which God first gave to Adam to bring him to life. It also doesn’t say her body arose. It says that she did because she wasn’t some spirit flying around somewhere else. Before rising she was only “sleeping” as Christ described it. This is consistent with the description of what happened to Stephen at death in Acts.
(John 11:11-14, 43, and 44 These things said He: and after that He saith unto them, “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.” Then said His disciples, “Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.” <Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that He had spoken of taking rest in sleep.> Then Jesus said unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.----And when He thus had spoken, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus came forth.” And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin.)
This is the second time Christ refers to death as sleep. He went to wake Lazarus from an unconscious state to a conscious one. This is what resurrection is. If Lazarus was off doing something why would he need to wake up?
Note also that Christ didn’t say “come back” <as from heaven> but “come forth” <as from the grave>. He came forth in a very natural state. He was bound in graveclothes and still had the napkin on his face. There was zero talk of him entering back into his body or something. He merely woke up. Nothing more.
Deut. 31:16 Moses, behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers
1st Kings 2:10 So David slept with his fathers, and was buried
1st Kings 11:43 Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried.
Job 7:21 Now shall I sleep in the dust.
Psalms 13:3 Lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death.
Daniel 12:2 Many of them that sleep in the dust
Acts 13:36 David fell on sleep
1st Corinthians 11:30 many sleep
2nd Peter 3:4 Since the fathers fell asleep
Sleep is basically a dormant and inactive state. Death is the most perfect and purest from of deep sleep. When someone is asleep they are passively waiting to live life and experience things once they wake up. They aren’t living their life or doing anything in any active way.
Sleep is a great analogy for someone being still; and lying in a coffin for an extended amount of time; waiting to rise to life. The English word cemetery comes from a Greek word meaning sleeping place. If someone went somewhere to have a great time I would say they were:
On vacation
Partying
Hanging out
Somewhere having a great time
Living the good life
Something like this----yeah
If someone were going somewhere to be tortured I would say they were:
Being punished
Paying for their actions
Getting judged
Getting hurt
Going somewhere to be tortured or such like----isn’t it
In either case: the word sleep would be the farthest thing from my mind in describing their state of affairs at the time. Neither of these even resemble sleep. Someone:
Flying around heaven
Seeing magical things
Experiencing mystical things
Looking down on loved ones
Getting face time with God orrrrr
Being with Jesus and all that is most definitely not sleeping at all. The word sleep doesn’t even point me in the right direction or anywhere near what they are doing. This would be far worse than even amateur word choice.
If someone were:
Moving around in some cavernous and supernatural location
Being jabbed by the pitchfork of Satan
Enduring constant fire torture
Meeting Hitler anddddddddd
Being around others in the same plight they aren’t ‘asleep’ either. They would only wish they were. The word sleep to describe either of these scenarios would be the worst description maybe ever. If I had to describe someone lying around with no real physical or mental activity: sleep would be the perfect word and description. Death is like sleep and very unlike going somewhere for reward or punishment.
Just as Lazarus was in the grave or earth after death; there are other verses saying people go to dust.
Genesis 3:19 Dust thou art, and unto dust thalt shall return
Job 34:15 Man shall turn again unto dust
40:13 Hide them in the dust together
Psalms 104:29 They die, and return to their dust
146:4 He returneth to his earth
Eccl. 3:20 All are of the dust, and all turn to dust again
12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was
As I covered before, man was formed of the dust of the ground. It is very natural for him to go back into the earth at death. Once there, he decomposes away to bone.
Man is only natural and mortal at birth. The beginning of man out of the earth in Adam was the beginning of a cycle ending in our going back in. Read also this quote.
(Psalms 103:14-16 For he knoweth our frame; He remembereth that we are dust. As for man, his day are as grass: As a flower of the field, so he flourisheth. For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; And the place thereof shall know it no more.)
See again the reference to man only as dust and not a spirit body. This verse also serves as a tie to the next segment of my presentation. Man’s life is brief and compared to nature in these verses:
(Job 14:1, 2 Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble. He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.)
(Psalms 39:4, 5 Lord, make me to know mine end, And the measure of my days, what it is; That I may know how frail I am. Behold, Thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; And mine age is as nothing before Thee: Verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity.)
(Psalms 78:39 For He remembered that they were but flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.)
(Psalms 90:5, 6 Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; In the evening it is cut down, and withereth.)
(Psalms 102:11 My days are like a shadow that declineth; And I am withered like grass.)
(Psalms 144:4 Man is like to vanity: His days are as a shadow that passeth away.)
(James 1:10, 11 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away. For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.)
(1st Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.)
Like animals: plants live a relatively short life and then wither away. Flowers grow and eventually die in a very visible way. Living in the Midwest United States I have seen the pattern of the seasons. I see God’s plan even there. They show the sequence of birth, growth, withering, death, and resurrection in the next spring.
I see the underlying message in the Bible as taking man’s death as the natural thing it is. To write some unseen fable underneath or in the margins is to author fiction. Men live for a while and then die and then a new generation goes on from there. If man lives on in some magical way at death; his death is nothing like what we see in nature. The death we witness in nature is quite real and final.
It is open to plain sight where people go at death. Proponents of the immortality of the soul are quick to say Auntie Rose or Grandpa Jones is in heaven. They will explain how their body isn’t really them anymore. Before they died it clearly was but once they die it isn’t. In some kind of quick switch the recognizable person who you know by name is no longer them.
Above I showed the soul goes to the grave at death. If that isn’t enough; here are scriptures showing the person, called by their name, gets buried for all to see at death. There are more but these should suffice my point.
God to Abraham (Genesis 15:15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.)
(Genesis 23:19 And after this, Abraham buried Sarah his wife in the cave---)
If Sarah at this point were some spiritual and immaterial entity: how did Abraham get a hold of her to stick her in the ground? If Sarah was alive, was he trying to torture her? Sarah was buried because Sarah was dead.
(Genesis 35:19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephraph, which is Bethlehem.)
(Genesis 35:29 And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.)
(Genesis 49:31 There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife; there they buried Isaac and Rebekah his wife; and there I buried Leah.)
(1st Kings 11:43 And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.)
(Acts 5:9, 10 –the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.)
Pay close attention to the wording here. For starters, her husband is buried. It doesn’t say anything about him being anywhere else. Second, once she died the young men found, carried, and buried “her.” She could be seen, carried, and buried.
Was there another “her” it doesn’t speak of that floated off invisibly? Maybe it was written along with the rest of the story but in invisible ink. Maybe it was lost in the margin or lost in translation. If you won’t accept the personal pronoun as who she really was did she fall down as it says. At what point was “her” not really “her” any more? When do you start writing your own story into this?
In Genesis 35:29, speaking of Isaac, it says Jacob buried “him.” Is “him” not who he is at that point to suit immortality of the soul? Why didn’t it say buried his body or something? Why give no description whatsoever of where the real “him” went? Is it like The Cat in the Hat with thing1 and thing2? Is there a him2 or him3 I should know about here? Does him just speak of a fraction of a man when you refer them with this word? Should Isaac have been them maybe?
In Genesis 15:15 when God made promises to Abraham he used “thou.” Was this not Abraham? Are the promises valid to the real Abraham? While making this promise why not tell him about this other “thou” going to heaven? Is living to an old age the best God could come up with?
If personal pronouns can be discarded or redefined what about calling someone by name? Was it speaking of Solomon when it said “And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father?” I guess it didn’t say “he” was buried so maybe “Solomon” was buried but “he” went to heaven. Did some part of Solomon go to heaven that can’t be described at all (pronoun, name, anything)?
Then there is Solomon’s father; David. He was the second king of Israel. God gave him the strength to kill Goliath and win many decisive battles for Israel.
In Luke 1:32 and in Acts 2:30 it is revealed that Christ will be given his throne as an honor. David was listed among the righteous in Hebrews 11:32. He wrote many of the chapters in the book of Psalms. Some were quoted in the New Testament like
(Romans 4:6-8 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, “Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.”)
(Acts 13:22 And when He had removed him, He raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also He gave testimony, and said, ‘I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after Mine own heart, which shall fulfill all my will.’)
David was clearly one of the righteous in line to inherit God’s kingdom. Although the goal in scripture is to be humble and please God; David was given honors and opportunities the average believer won’t get. Surely he must have gone to heaven----right?
(Acts 2:29, 34 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.----For David is not ascended into the heavens---.)
Peter speaks freely and plainly about David’s state. I don’t read this as him trying to hide where the real David is. He makes it beyond clear where David is (his grave) and where David isn’t (heaven).
If anyone should be in heaven it is David and not Auntie Rose or grandpa or granny Jones. Some make this strange argument where those who died before Christ didn’t get to go to heaven. First of all, what do they do if they are alive: where do they go? Is there some second made up system outside the scripture and the pagan heaven and hell they fall into? While we are at it we should make a third for those before the law and a fourth for those before the flood.
Also, this is speaking of David’s state after Christ has risen to be with God. Why is he in his grave when everyone else gets to go? Did he get jobbed by God? Because whoever or whatever you want to say David is; he is in his grave and not in heaven. You could say David is thin air now but that thin air is in the grave and not in heaven according to Peter.
Back to Solomon
(Ecclesiastes 6:4-6 For he cometh in with vanity, and departeth in darkness, and his name shall be covered with darkness. Moreover he hath not seen the sun, nor known any thing: this hath more rest than the other. Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?)
Solomon talks quite a bit about vanity in this book (especially the 2nd chapter). The actions of this world not associated with doing the good of God’s will eventually lead to nothing. They are transient and lead only to temporary ends.
There is also a common end for all at death. Solomon refers to the darkness of a true death here and also says “do not all go to one place?” This doesn’t sound like the good going to one place and the wicked to another. Maybe again their representative body that no one in the Bible talks about goes to a different place that Solomon just overlooked.
(Ecclesiastes 9:2, 3 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath. This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.)
Whether you live right by God or whether you don’t: you will share the fait of all men at the time of death. Death is ultimately the same experience for everyone. It is when you cease to live and nothing more.
Anxiousness and impatience in man have fueled the idea of an immediate judgment and reward at death. The microwave society meets religion. They have turned a negative consequence into an immediate bliss for love of friends and family. They turn the experience of the good person’s death into something completely opposite of the bad guy.
Did Solomon see this in saying “there is one event unto all,” or “madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead?” He is saying you will die the same death no matter how you conduct yourself. Just like above when he said “do not all go to one place?” Was he missing something big here? Maybe Solomon just didn’t get it like modern Bible students. He was only the wisest man to ever live with the spirit of God inspiring him to write scripture.
Also, at the end of 3, why do men only have evil in madness in their hearts while they live? Does God make the ones who go to hell perfect? Solomon was referring to the end of thought in the grave.
(Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.)
I know it is a feel good story to believe that lost loved ones are still experiencing things in a “better place.” This is a fun illusion. The only problem is that this goes completely against these verses.
To start “a living dog is better than a dead lion.” What can be garnered from this other than death killing what you are? Death is the far lesser state which leaves you with nothing where the lesser beast is at least alive in a better state. The dog is better because the lion can’t do nor experience anything. Note again the comparison to animals. Also, how does this jive with the dead being in a better place? If this were true; wouldn’t the dead dog be better than the living lion?
Second, as to lost loved ones watching over you and knowing what you are doing: it says “the dead know not anything.” Will you go to some argument like ‘but they really do,’ or ‘they do in another form that isn’t them but is?’ If even part of the person who died knew something they wouldn’t not know anything.
In the end, either they do or they don’t know something. Solomon says they don’t. You can invent another them and say they know everything I guess. But that isn’t Solomon’s point.
Also, as to people feeling something for you once their dead: it states “Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished.” When someone dies all their thoughts and emotions die with them. Do their thoughts also have an immortal soul which falls outside this? Just like I went through all the pronouns and names before and some will still say this doesn’t encompass the real them. Are “their love, and their hatred, and their envy” not theirs? Is it referring to them? Do these emotions keep going on in some indescribable way also? Or do they perish as it says?
I am not trying to be the bad guy here. I have lost loved ones. I only feel compassion for others who have. But shall you base your belief on the Bible or what makes the most comforting story? Because the problem is that your believing something contrary to scripture doesn’t change anything anyway. We are not God with that kind of power. At some point you are just lying to yourself. This doesn’t change the fait of your lost loved one but changing the gospel message can change your destiny.
(Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with they might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave , whither thou goest.)
Again, where does Solomon say you go at death? Do you keep right on thinking and living at this point? What else could he have said to make his point more clear here? Should he have said where thou and you go? Is “thou” not really you and not good enough?
The whole point is to do what you can while alive because you can do nothing in death. Death is the end of all thought and action. Should he have used more words like ‘you really have no thought’ or ‘you have absolutely no device?’ Would this make the point that you have no activity in death?
The faith (eleventh) chapter of Hebrews is also very instructive on this matter. It briefly details the stories of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Rahab, and speaks of others.
Pay particular attention to Abraham in 8-10 and 13. He was looking on earth for an inheritance. Verse 10 says “For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.” Verse 13 states that all these died without receiving the promises. The chapter then goes on with more and more names and examples of faith.
Hebrews 11:39 and 40 read “And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise, God having provided some better thing for us , that they without us should not be made perfect.”
There are many people mentioned here but “the promise” is common to them all. Eternal life is the main promise given to those who are God’s elect. You can further qualify that with what Abraham searched for. He looked for a kingdom on earth. This combination would be eternal life in the coming kingdom.
To say these people received eternal life and entrance into God’s kingdom at death goes against this. To start, this discussion of stories covers a long span of time. The lives and subsequent deaths of these righteous folks more than overlapped. Wouldn’t some of them have received the promise by now if you got it right at death? The idea is they all looked for something in the future.
Nowhere does it speak of any having anything yet. On the contrary, verse 40 says “God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.” There will be a change from mortal to immortal; from imperfect to perfect. This doesn’t happen to people individually at their death.
Verse 40 makes it clear we are not dealing with individuals receiving the promise one at a time. People don’t straggle in alone as each one dies. The promise is something those before don’t receive “without us.” There is a set time when the group receives the promise. This neatly brings us to PART 3.